[ the actual title of this page:]
http://WhatWouldJesusThink.info/AboutJesusVsPaulOnSalvation.html

 

Paul of Tarsus
 

Is THIS what you believe
about Salvation ?

"for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of Godnot the result of works, so that no one may boast."

  Ephesians 2: 8 – 9

FAITH  and / or   WORKS ?

Or is THIS what you believe
about Salvation ?

"Thus you will know them by their fruits.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?'  Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.' "

  Matthew 7: 18 – 23

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 about "Salvation"

Paul sometimes makes it clear that by "works" he means the "works of the Law", i.e. the requirements of the Old Testament.  At other times, he appears to be talking about all works, including those required by the New Testament, and those performed by others who might not believe in either Testament, but follow what their own consciences tell them that they should do or avoid doing.

Let us first look at what Paul says about the "works of the Law" and compare that to what Jesus says regarding that subject.

 { in Galatians 2:16 }  

". . .   a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.  And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus,  so that we might be justified by faith in Christ,   and not by doing the works of the law,   because no one will be justified by the works of the law" ?

{Romans 3 : 28 }  

"For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law."

{ Romans 4: 3 – 5: 2 }  

"For if Abraham (who came before the Jews were given the "the Law" at the time of Moses) was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.  For what does the scripture say?  "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."   Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due.  But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness.

Here's my color code:
  • Red for Jesus' words
  • Green for Paul's words
  • Purple for other biblical texts

So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin."  Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised?  We say, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness."  How then was it reckoned to him?  Was it before or after he had been circumcised?  It was not after, but before he was circumcised.  He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.  The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised (i.e. the gentiles) and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised.  For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 
        If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.  For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.  For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants, not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham (for he is the father of all of us, as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations") – in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.  Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "So numerous shall your descendants be".  He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was already as good as dead (for he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.  No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.  Therefore his faith "was reckoned to him as righteousness."
        Now the words, "it was reckoned to him," were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also.  It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.  Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God."

While Christian Conservatives insist that there cannot be any contradiction between the teachings of Jesus and Paul (despite all evidence to the contrary), their way of dealing with the conflicts is to enthusiastically embrace and endlessly repeat Paul's teaching about "the Law and the Prophets" (above), while quietly ignoring Christ's teaching, (as you will see below).  They are so much like Paul, who claimed to represent Jesus and yet hardly ever quoted the words of the Lord.

According to those who follow Paul, what is most important to God is what we believe.   According to those who follow JESUS, what is most important to God is what we do.  Even while those who follow Paul talk a great deal about JESUS, what they believe about him is not what JESUS said about himself and what he expects of us.  but what Paul said about JESUS and what Paul expects of us.

{ Matthew 5: 17 – 22 }  

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.  Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
        "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.'  But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire."

{ Luke 16:16 – 17 }  

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of Yahweh is preached, and every man presseth (forces his way) into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

{ Matthew 23: 1 – 5 }  

" Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others;

 { Luke 10: 25 – 37 }

"One day an expert on Moses' laws came to test Jesus' orthodoxy by asking him this question: "Teacher, what does a man need to do to live forever in heaven?"  Jesus replied, "What does Moses' law say about it?"  "It says," he replied, " that you must love the lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind.  And you must love your neighbor just as much as you love yourself. "  "Right!", Jesus told him.  "Do this and you shall live!"

{ Mark 7: 6 – 9,13 }  

"He said to them,  "Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written, 'this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.' You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition." Then he said to them,  "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! . . .   13 thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on.  And you do many things like this."

Speaking of prophets, Isaiah was the one that Jesus
quoted the most, sometimes verbatim, sometimes not.

{ Isaiah 58: 1 – 10 }  

"Shout with the voice of a trumpet blast; tell my people of their sins!  Yet they act so pious!   They come to the Temple every day and are so delighted to hear the reading of my laws   – just as though they would obey them – just as though they don't despise the commandments of their God!  How anxious they are to worship correctly; oh, how they love the Temple services! ;  'We have fasted before you,' they say.  'Why aren't you impressed?  Why don't you see our sacrifices?  Why don't you hear our prayers?   We have done much penance, and you don't even notice it!'
        I'll tell you why!  because you are living in evil pleasure even while you are fasting, and you keep right on oppressing your workers.  Look, what good is fasting when you keep on fighting and quarreling?  This kind of fasting will never get you anywhere with me.  is this what I want – this doing of penance and bowing like reeds in the wind, putting on sackcloth and covering yourselves with ashes?  Is this what you call fasting?   The kind of fast I want is that you stop oppressing those who work for you and treat them fairly and give them what they earnI want you to share your food with the hungry and destitute.  clothe those who are cold, and don't hide from relatives who need your help.
       If you do these things, God will shed his own glorious light upon you.   He will heal you.  Your godliness will lead you forward, goodness will be a shield before you, and the glory of the Lord will protect you from behind.  Then, when you call, the Lord will answer.   'Yes, I am here,' he will quickly reply.  All you need to do is to stop oppressing the weak and stop making false accusations and spreading vicious rumors!  "Feed the hungry!   Help those in trouble!  Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day."

While claiming to be "Christians", Conservatives give lip service to Jesus, and then ignore Jesus' teaching about Faith proven by "works", in favor of Paul's teaching about Faith without works.

Either "Christian Conservatives" don't know or don't care how much Jesus and the Gospels say about the works which God requires of us in all of the passages which we urge you to read carefully below.  But, don't take our word for that.  Just read what Conservatives write and listen to what they quote, and you will see that what they really believe and constantly quote is not what JESUS taught about what we must do, but what Paul taught about was what Christ did for us  i.e. :

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."  ( Ephesians 2:8 – 9 )

"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!"  ( Romans 5:10 )

"God . . .  saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace.  This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"  { II Timothy 1: 8 – 10 }

" But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.  This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."  { Titus 3: 4 – 7 }

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of god – not the result of works, so that no one may boast."  { Ephesians 2: 8 – 9 }

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace."  { Romans 10: 5 – 6 }

"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."   ( I Corinthians 15:21 – 22 )

"...just as He chose us In Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."  ( Ephesians 1:4 )

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace."   ( Ephesians 1:7 )

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God."   ( Romans 7:4 )

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision Of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave its all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross."   ( Colossians 2:13 )

"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."   ( 1 Corinthians 6:11) "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."   ( Titus 3:5 )

"But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy In His sight, without blemish and free from accusation."   ( Colossians 1:22 )

"For you have died. and your life is hidden with Christ in God."   ( Colossians 3:3 )

"For all of you who were united with Christ in baptism have been clothed with Christ."   ( Galatians 3:27 )

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation – having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."   ( Ephesians 1:13 – 14 )

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."   ( 2 Corinthians 5:21 )

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."   ( Romans 5:17 )

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are Justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."   ( Romans 3:23 – 24 )

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have , peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."   ( Romans 5:1 )

"Much more, having been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."   ( Romans 5:9 )

"By God's) will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all."   ( Hebrews 10: 10 )

"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."   ( 1 Corinthians 6:11 )

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!"   ( Romans 8:15 )

'But when the fulness of time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman. born under the Law. in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."   ( Galatians 4:4 – 5 )

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins ... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ."   ( Ephesians 2:1,5 )

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."   ( Hebrews 10: 14 )

"For in Him all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete..."   ( Colossians 2:9 – 10 )

"Therefore, you are no longer a slave, but a son: and if a son, then an heir through God."   ( Galatians 4:7 )

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."   ( Romans 8:1 )

"Blessed by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."   ( Ephesians 1:3 )

"Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is. His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God. let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful."   ( Hebrews 10:19 – 23 )

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, what JESUS clearly taught is that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace").

Martin Luther preferred the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus
to the Gospels about Jesus of Nazareth

As one of Paul's most famous admirers – I'm tempted to say "worshippers" – Martin Luther made it clear that he would have preferred a New Testament full of Paul's Epistles and without the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke and the Epistle of James.   In Wittenberg, 1522 and in Laws, James p.1 he wrote:

"In sum, St. John's Gospel and John's epistle, (all of) St. Paul's epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. . .  "In comparison with these the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical."  And Luther concludes:  "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.  As long as we are here in this world we have to sin.  This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness.  But no sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."  (which Lutheran and Catholic admirers of Paul actually did in the German concentration camps)
        (and by this very same argument, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke "are gospels of straw, (compared to the Gospel of John and to Paul's epistles) for these have nothing of the nature of the gospel about them, and among the books or doctrines that you need "never to see or hear". )


As a Christian clergyman, prior to my reading the book "The Mythmaker", written by Hyam Maccoby, a Jewish scholar who has a great deal to teach Christians about the Hebrew culture of Jesus of Nazareth and of Paul of Tarsus, I thought I understood what I read in the New Testament. But "The Mythmaker" argues very forcefully (among many other excellent points) that:


{ Matthew 4: 17 – 19 }  

"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored?  It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot.  "You are the light of the world.  A city built on a hill cannot be hid.  No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

{ Matthew 5: 2 – 19 }  
        "When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and his disciples came to him.  Then he began to speak, and he taught them, saying:

Jesus xinvite pic "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger
and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they will receive mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for
they will be called children of God.

Blessed are those who are
persecuted for righteousness' sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


      Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.  Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven,  for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who went before you."

While PAUL clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 7: 18 – 23 }  

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  Thus you will know them by their fruits.
        "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'

While PAUL clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 7: 24 – 29 }  

"Everyone then who hears these words of mine (i.e. believes them) and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.  The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock.  And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand.  The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell – and great was its fall!" Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes."

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 21: 28 – 32 }  

" "What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' He answered, 'I will not'; but later he changed his mind and went.  The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, 'I go, sir'; but he did not go.  which of the two did the will of his father?" They said,  "The first." Jesus said to them,  "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of god ahead of you.

While PAUL clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 10: 32 – 36 }  

"Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.   Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.  For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household.  Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.  Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 10: 37 – 42 }  

"Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet's reward; and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous; and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple – truly i tell you, none of these will lose their reward."

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew  12: 33 – 37 }  

"Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.  You brood of vipers! How can you speak good things, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  the good person brings good things out of a good treasure, and the evil person brings evil things out of an evil treasurei tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Luke 6 : 45 – 46 }  

"The good person out of the good treasure of the heart produces good, and the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil; for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks.  "why do you call me 'lord, lord,' ( i.e. profess to believe in me) and do not do what i tell you?"

What makes a person right with God is a heart that is "in the right place," for that is what inspires the right as opposed to the wrong actions.

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Mark 7: 20 – 23}  

"And he said,  "It is what comes out of a person that defiles.  For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly.  All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 12: 47 – 50 }  

"Jesus replied,  "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"  And pointing to his disciples, he said,  "Here are my mother and my brothers! for whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." 

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Luke 8: 21}  

" But he said to them,
        "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of god and do it."

While Paul clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does ( God's "grace") :

{ Matthew 13: 18 – 23 }  

"Hear then the parable of the sower.  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path.  As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet such a person has no root, but endures only for a while, and when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away.  As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the lure of wealth choke the word, and it yields nothing.  But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

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